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  IS THIS REDUNDANT AND SELF EQUALISING?
Wednesday 2nd April 2008 at 6:18:46 PM  

kassysimon
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Hi guys and gals, i am pretty new to outdoor climbing and I have been doing alot of reading but I have come across an area that i would like to rapel from and would like to know if the rapel station i have drawn below is correct. I am trying to use the least amount of gear possible so this is all using one rope.
The situation is two trees almost directly behind each other about 10 meters apart, set horizontally apart by 1 meter.
am i using the correct knots?
which way would you recommend tieing into to this situation?
thanks
 
Wednesday 2nd April 2008 at 6:37:28 PM  

chilli
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can't see pics. please try to repost or edit (or maybe it's my system)

in the meantime: generally, my recommendation (and my favorite setup for TR is by using a USSR (Ultimate Sling-Shot Rig - aka a Russian). this employs a section (typically about 50ft) of static line. If using two trees, i like to wrap around one tree three times, then tie a running bowline. the second tree can be attached with a section of webbing (wrap-3-pull-2) and a clove hitch to a biner connected to the webbing to allow for easy extension/equalization. then the loop that extends over the edge is tied making a master point with a dog-eared figure eight. this system is quick, easy, and is redundant, while allowing for easy static equalization. i'll try to find a pic of the description when i have some more time. in the meantime you can try and search for USSR TR setup if you need to see a pic (i think the climbing magazine website had a decent example). hope that helps a bit.
 
Wednesday 2nd April 2008 at 11:47:06 PM  

kassysimon
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hey chilli
yeah, pics always help me understand things clearer but i think i get your drift.
you mentioned tying a master point, is this then what you tie your rappel rope into? If so, i only have one rope, and this wont work for me. any other suggestions
 
i need to complete tying into the trees witht he same rope i am going to be rappeling from.
 
thanks
 
Thursday 3rd April 2008 at 7:13:30 AM  

davey569
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it can be alot easier and safer if you use more than one rope. get yourself a few slings or you could buy rope by the meter and make a bandolier that can be used for this sort of work.
 
Thursday 3rd April 2008 at 3:33:07 PM  

chilli
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&*^(!#&*%^$*&^ @)$^) #*(#*& $! !*(P_#&_ !_*&#_!*&#!$&*^*%(&$*&
the above is a string of cursing becasue i just spent a long time on a thorough explanation and then hit the backspace key!!! damned page went back and i lost everything i said.
here's the short version: that's not the setup i would have used, but it works. however, if you're going to use that configuration, switch your trees so the load strand comes off of front tree to avoid potential extension. there are a few other points and suggestions i can make, but i'm a little too pissed about wasted time right now.
i think i misunderstood what you wanted to do which was addressed in the longer version. i'll get back to you later about that.
in the meantime, let me know how to upload an image.
 
Thursday 3rd April 2008 at 11:48:38 PM  

kassysimon
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HEY CHILLI,
the easiest way to upload an image is to create an account with PHOTOBUCKET, upload your image to photobucket and then click on the URL link for that image inside the photo album. this will copy it to your clipboard, then click the picture icon above the text box when creating your post and paste the url into the prompt box. its real easy, youll understand once open the photobucket website.
 
Friday 4th April 2008 at 8:50:31 AM  

bradkillough
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Not only is this procedure redundant, it is also not needed. The best way to rappell is using a tentionless set up. Very simple, Just rap the rop around one tree, letting the rope overlap itself, therefor taking the pressure off the knot.
Then using a figure-eight on a bight w/back-up double fishermans knot and two locking biners to attach to the rope itself. Hope that helps.

Friday 4th April 2008 at 11:29:20 AM  

chilli
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below is the (crudely drawn) USSR setup for top rope use that i was talking about. this is really not applicable to your case/question since you're just interested in rapping off of a single line for recreational purposes as i understand (i figured since i drew it up before i hit the backspace key, i'd post it anyway). however you can use this setup (and i have) to rap off of, but it's really only worthwhile if you're planning on climbing as well. you can just as easily make two not-a-knot setups, but i like to use the webbing to allow for easy adjustment via clove hitch. when using two not-a-knots (with running bowlines) it's easier to equalize using two fig-8's as a master point than to use the dog-eared fig-8 (even though, generally i like the dog-eared more.
thanks for the photobucket tip :o)

as with many of my suggestions, i feel it's necessary to state the obvious first: climbing (and ESPECIALLY rappelling) is an inherently dangerous activity and you take your life in YOUR OWN hands. i can not be held responsible for anyone who may read this making ill use or application of the advice given, or anyone who sustains some injury or death from engaging in climbing/rappelling. that being said, on we go with the suggestions...
-
as far as my suggestion for your setup goes, it's possible if you switch the trees, but it's really not necessary IF your tree is as large as it appears to be in the drawing AND is well rooted. if that's the case, the tree will more than hold your weight applied during a rappel (or other scenarios for that matter).
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i'm a little confused about something here though: you don't want to climb, just rap on a static line? and then your going to walk back up and either rap again or just collect your fixed rope? recreational rapping is by no means my area of expertise, because when i rap, it's because a walk-off is out of the question and i intend on leaving so i try to leave as little gear as possible, and i CERTAINLY don't fix the rope.
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if it were me, then i wouldn't just be rapping, i'd be rapping down and leaving, so i would do one of two things:
1) in the interest of leaving no gear behind, and dependent on the type of tree and conditions, i'd simply sling the rope around the tree and rap off using both strands, then pull the rope and be gone
2) wrap some webbing (wrap-3-pull-2) and attach some biners/rap rings and thread the rope through, rapping off of both strands and then pulling the rope and leaving the webbing + rings/biners behind
-
it sounds to me like you just want to have a fixed single line to rap though... to be honest i wouldn't use your setup at all (the redundancy achieved is both complex and unnecessary if your first tree is big enough). what you're concerned about is not your rope failing (if it does, it's either because of misuse/abuse or it was just your day to go). what you're concerned about is your knot failing, so all you really have to do it take your knot out of the weighted system. the easiest way to do that, provided that your tree is big enough, is to simply tie a -not-a-knot around the tree. to do this you take a section toward one end of your rope and wrap it around the tree 3-4 times. this will cause the strands to bite down on the tree and themselves, which will actually hold your weight on it's own. but because we want to be safe, to finish the not-a-knot setup we tie a running bowline over the load strand with the remaining tail. the running bowline is key, because it provides a measure of safety for slippage (which really won't happen anyway) AND the running part keeps the knot out of the loaded system, because you're not actually tying your load strand into the bowline.
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if your first tree (the one closest to the edge) is tiny and the one in the back is big, then just skip the first tree entirely and rap off of the second in that same single tree anchor manner.
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if BOTH trees are skimpy then you'll want to have them backed up (or find another anchor method). in that case, i would suggest webbing to equalize the trees. if you're REALLY opposed to spending the extra $20 on some webbing (and the stuff is pretty cheap so i don't see why you wouldn't pony up for better protection), then just switch your configuration so the load strand comes off of the first tree.
-
edited to add: HA! i didn't hit the backspace button!
also, it appears as though brad had a similar suggestion with a slight variation on the knot setup (and fewer words). that could work as well. sorry, brad; didn't read your post before i wrote
 
Friday 4th April 2008 at 12:28:04 PM  

bradkillough
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Not a problem Chilli, Its pretty much the same thing, good point.
I learned by my mistakes and I found ( since at first I was an extreme rappeller, doing everything short of death! ) Inverted, ausie, static jump, and the most dangerous, the crusifix- which is just another word for static jumping w/ more control. I found that the tentionless anchor was the best to take the strain off the figure eight knot.

Friday 4th April 2008 at 8:19:19 PM  

kassysimon
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no worries guys.
i understand completely, thanks.
the reason behind this question is a 125mm top rope. i need one rope to rapel and one to climb back tot he top with. hence the minimal gear and my tight fisted aproach.
i can see your logic with the wrap three using slilng. that will be the way i will do it.
thanks for all you help. and sorry about the trouble..
simon
 
Friday 4th April 2008 at 8:23:34 PM  

bradkillough
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Not a problem, your quite welcome.

Friday 4th April 2008 at 8:56:13 PM  

ffemt
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125mm rope? That is some thick rope.
 
Saturday 5th April 2008 at 12:46:08 PM  

kassysimon
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i have alot weight to carry!
 
Saturday 5th April 2008 at 5:10:49 PM  

ffemt
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I'll say. 125mm is just short of 5 inch diameter rope.
 
Saturday 5th April 2008 at 6:07:22 PM  

chilli
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ffemt posted the following on Saturday 5th April 2008
I'll say. 125mm is just short of 5 inch diameter rope.

yeah, i just wrote it off as a typo. what the heck are you talking about simon? 12.5mm?
 
#Posts: 23   Page: 1/2  
 
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